Marjolein van Ballegooij, founder of Conversation Studio, was featured on the Female Leaders Podcast, an initiative by Maartje Blijleven designed to empower and inspire female entrepreneurs with actionable tips and insights for making a meaningful impact and driving growth in both their personal and professional lives.
Maartje: Welcome Marjolein, you are the founder of Conversation Studio. Can you tell me a bit more about what you do?
“I refer to Conversation Studio as a strategic creative market research agency. We help companies with issues primarily related to product innovation and marketing communication.”
Maartje: Yes nice. And your mission really resonates with me—No More Crappy Products. That’s basically the starting point in everything you do. Can you take us through how that came about?
“That actually came from experiences I’ve had. I’ve worked as an employee for companies, and I worked at an agency called Clear, which focused specifically on innovations. So, I dealt with many people who only wanted to innovate. I was curious about how that works, like when do you actually want to innovate? When do you feel that urge to innovate? I also noticed that the word innovation can be somewhat misused, just like the word design. You can buy design items at a discount store, and suddenly, innovation is anything that’s just slightly new. So, I started to wonder, what is it really about? For me, it’s really about companies wanting to add real value to the products and services they offer, rather than just putting things on the market to fill shelf space. That’s what interested me. I wanted to make a bold statement with "No More Crappy Products." Of course, not everything is crappy in the sense that it doesn’t work; things do work. But what are you really adding? I think that was the main trigger for me.
Maartje: You work for large brands, really helping them to position their products well in the market. Can you walk us through the process? Suppose I’m an entrepreneur with a cool product idea, what would the roadmap look like?
“We work with large companies—corporates—but also with somewhat larger SMEs. We’re not just operating in the corporate world. When companies come to us that want to innovate, I am curious what the initial trigger was. We start with identifying where the need lies. If you already have an idea, what is it based on? Is it based on market research or other ideas? Are there indications that this really feels like the right direction, and can we build on it, or do we need to take a step back? You often see, and I always say this, that there’s no shortage of ideas. There seem to be thousands of product ideas, and that’s not the problem. So, you start with the need from the target audience. Of course, you also have your strategic goals as a company, and you need to know if it’s even feasible to make it. That’s the whole business case around it. We are really focused on front-end innovation. That means starting with understanding the need from the target audience.”
Maartje: It’s exactly what you’re saying. Yes, there are thousands of ideas, but if you’re not solving a concrete problem for a specific target audience in a unique and distinctive way, with concrete results, it becomes difficult to bring something to the market.
What about AI? You’re a research agency, and product innovation is super important. I’ve been online for twenty-four years, which means I’ve been constantly pioneering. What’s here now wasn’t there twenty-four years ago. You had to do so much yourself, so I’m used to dealing with innovation. I find it very exciting. What I notice now, when I look at the tools available—one of the tools many people know is ChatGPT, but there are many more—is that I also use it a lot for research.
That can be done to a certain extent. Desk research is different from interviewing people. How do you use AI in your company? Because it’s definitely a game-changer in that regard.
“Yes, absolutely. In the market research field, when I started in 2002, reports were still typed in Word. That sounds really old, but it was still a time when everything was done manually, including interviews, which were conducted either face-to-face or by phone. Online surveys were happening but not on a large scale, as not everyone was online yet. The market research field has completely digitized, evolving with the trends. So, when new inventions like AI come along, you think, okay, what can we do with this? And actually, there’s a lot you can do with it on many fronts. On the one hand, it can make your work easier, whether it’s emails, proposals, or calculations. It’s more about your business operations. But also, how do you handle the data? Excel, making analysis easier, analyzing open-ended responses, automatically transcribing interviews, and generating summaries.
But what I’m particularly focused on now is how I can combine logic and magic when it comes to innovation. So, how can I use facts—research, and all the documents a company already has—to say, yes, this is why we want to innovate, and this is what we want to do? But I don’t want the solution to just come from my own head.
Instead, I want to find a solution with a bit of a superpower around me. One example, among others, is that you want a good strategic framework. Based on that, you can develop a framework where you identify a few opportunity areas within your product category or domain. From those strategic areas, you can start generating ideas, but I want the team responsible to also come up with the ideas themselves. This means I invite them to be involved and to get inspired by the strategic opportunity areas, but also to interact, for example, with a GPT. So, within ChatGPT, you now have the option to build or generate your own GPTs. Suddenly, you can have a group discussion with your target audience—a virtual discussion, actually. You can talk to documents; you can consult your research and ask, based on everything we know, what are the don’ts in this area, or what shouldn’t we do? This way, you’re interacting more with your target audience online, but you can also set up an entire expert panel. Yesterday, I built one with experts.”
Maartje: Yes, how does that work? You’re a bit further along, and I think many people listening now might wonder what you mean. Can you explain concretely how you build such an expert panel?
“It’s actually very easy. Well, that’s not entirely true. You first need to think about who you want in your expert panel. For example, in the most luxurious position, I would want creative thinkers who have spoken at TED Talks and can really think disruptively. You want to figure out who those people are, and you can search for them yourself, but you can also ask for suggestions. Then, you make a selection of who they are. I wrote a prompt with my challenge, including some consumer insights, and made it clear that they are my expert panel. I want to be able to talk to them as if I’m in a group discussion, with each expert providing their input.
You create a GPT from that prompt, and again, I’m not an expert—I’m really just experimenting. I also have help with this because I’m not sure if I’m doing it right. But as I was working on it yesterday, I thought, wow, this is actually very easy. I could ask my expert panel all sorts of questions about the issue to make it more strategic and to shape my thoughts. I found it this to be truly magical, and I’m very happy with it. It’s also simple because within ChatGPT, you now have the option to build your own GPTs.
I’m still a fan of ChatGPT at the moment, even though there are thousands of other tools I could be using. But I’m particularly focused on how it can benefit my field.”
Maartje: Yeah, it’s amazing; you can even chat with virtual versions of people like Tony Robbins or Brené Brown. Do you think AI will significantly change your work? How do you see that unfolding in the coming years? We’re really just at the beginning of the AI revolution, similar to the start of the industrial revolution. Experts say this is just the beginning of an 80-year journey, and it’s evolving so rapidly. What do you think it will mean for your company and your work?
“For me, with my company, which is all about "No More Crappy Products," my goal is to ensure that better thought goes into the development of products and services that truly add value.
Our company is set up to adapt to these developments. We’re not focused on building tools or anything like that ourselves, so we can tap into whatever comes along—the better, the more beautiful. Will it change? Yes, it definitely will.
There are already research agencies that are fully committed to synthetic data, where actual humans are no longer involved, so to speak. These are all virtual people. I’m still of the hybrid school, though, and I’m not sure how that will change. But I still want to talk to real people or gather input through large online surveys, and then compare that with what my synthetic data says. This is particularly relevant for target groups where you can conduct virtual research and the like. And yes, I still think that people are, well, kind of strange creatures in that they are very irrational, so you can’t always predict how they will react.
As a trained qualitative researcher, it’s also about reading between the lines. You pick up on small things that can spark further questions. So far, I don’t think AI can do that yet, but at the pace it’s advancing, who knows where it will lead? I think our work will become, well, not simpler, but we will definitely have more tools to eliminate the tedious tasks. But creative thinking—combining human intelligence, AI, and Consumer Insights—will allow us to create truly beautiful things. I think this will be a magical combination in the developments to come.”
Maartje: Aren’t you worried that companies will dive fully into ChatGPT and AI and say, "Marjolein, we don’t need you anymore; we can do it ourselves"? How do you ensure that you and your company remain distinctive and that people still see the need for qualitative research in these steps?
Well, qualitative or quantitative, indeed. The question is, do you still need to ask people to get your work done? I find that a fascinating question. Look, my company is called Conversation Studio because I believe that better conversations need to be held internally at companies about whatever feedback you receive, whether from an AI tool or consumer research. You need to discuss within the company what it actually means and what you’re going to do with it. You also need alignment within your team; you need to bring them along, or else you risk the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, where ideas are thought up but not fully embraced. You need to feel what you’re doing and commit to it.
And for that, you need a team within the company that genuinely stands behind it. So, the human factor remains very important to me. I don’t know if I’ll still be conducting interviews myself—interviewing is very time-consuming. But the idea of having a virtual version of myself conducting interviews in all languages sounds quite appealing.
Maartje: Yeah, great. When you look at entrepreneurship, you’ve built a successful company, you have a team, what do you see as key factors that contribute to the success of an entrepreneur? What do you think is the secret or what’s important in that?
For me, it’s like this: anyone can register with the Chamber of Commerce and become an entrepreneur. That’s how it works, and in the Netherlands, it’s really easy, which I’m very grateful for. But as an entrepreneur, you need to follow through. Why do you want to be an entrepreneur, and what impact do you really want to make with your business? It doesn’t have to be big; it can be small, making a small impact. So, starting a business from your intrinsic motivation, I think that’s something every entrepreneur should reflect on—why am I doing this? Because if it’s just about making money, I don’t know, that can’t be the motivation, right? Everyone wants to live comfortably and maybe buy a nicer car, but if it’s all about money, money, money, I think that’s pretty shallow.
Maartje: It’s really about your mission and what you want to contribute. When you think about entrepreneurship, it’s often like top-level sports. You have to be at the top of your game, now more than ever. I think it’s a great example that you say, "We’re in research, in innovation, a new innovation comes along, we embrace it, and we go with it," and at the same time, it demands something of you as a person. What do you see, or what do you do to stay at the top of your game? That can be anything from taking care of yourself to reading or attending conferences. What’s important to you in that regard?
“Well, having your own company already gives you a lot of energy, to be honest. Much more than I ever got as an employee because you’re so dependent on others, and they can suddenly change course. So being in control yourself gives a lot of energy. I also have a lot of energy, so I don’t get easily knocked off course. I also have two children, I have a husband, and of course, I want to see my friends. But for me, I live in Oegstgeest, not exactly next door, but relatively close to the beach. So for me, going to the beach is really important. Do you do that often? It’s wonderful; it just gives you that mix of relaxation. I’m also someone who really values silence at times, so I actively seek it out because my mind is always racing, and there’s always something to do. But when you seek out silence, you also find yourself reflecting on what’s really beautiful, what you’re enjoying. We’re doing beautiful things, and it’s important to really appreciate the present moment and what you have now.”
Maartje: Yeah, beautiful, because as entrepreneurs, we’re often used to just pushing forward, going and going. So, I think it’s important to pause occasionally. What tip do you have for entrepreneurs who are watching or listening, who have a business but are hitting a ceiling and want to break through? What would you advise someone who wants to move from start-up to scale-up but doesn’t quite know how?
Well, that’s still a challenge for me too. I’ve grown organically, so to speak. I don’t have investors, so it’s really been from the ground up. I have that book, it’s right here next to me, "Scaling Up." But my tip would be to find someone who can really help you with that, someone who has already walked that path and can assist you. We recently teamed up with Wouter Glaser to take a moment to think more calmly—hey, we’re doing well with the business, but where are we actually going? Where do we want to go, and how do we want to get there? And staying true to yourself is key. My ambition is not to have a super big company with hundreds of employees. That’s not what I aspire to. I want to continue providing boutique service and maintaining the quality while delivering services with enthusiasm, interest, and expertise. Seek help from someone who has already walked that path and can assist you. I think that’s important.
Maartje: What can we expect from you in the near future? Is there a dream or something you’d like to share that you’re really excited about?
“We’re working hard to better convey the message of "No More Crappy Products." I must say, I never really did much in terms of marketing. I helped others with marketing but did so little for my own business that I thought, wait a minute, this story is really important too. Especially now with AI, for example, ideas are no longer the problem. You really want to make sure you’re bringing valuable ideas to the table and that your portfolio doesn’t explode with overlapping products that consumers have no idea what to do with. I want to encourage companies to be bold and make choices about what they will and won’t do. So, in my marketing, that’s the message I hope to convey.”
Listen to the orginal interview with founder of Conversation Studio, Marjolein van Ballegooij.
Questions? marjolein@theconversationstudio.com
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